Here is the transcript of an online debate with Cullen Webb. As usual, when the argument is not going in the religious way, they dodge.
Full transcript below without editing, excepting removing the reply/like buttons
albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago
I declare that pink unicorn created god and ordered god to create this universe. Can you prove that there is no pink unicorn?
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
Has the pink unicorn given us any reason to believe in it? Like a divine word , it's only son, or a law written on our hearts? No? Then the Unicorn is not a viable argument.
However, Jehovah HAS given us a divine word (Bible,) his only Son (Jesus Christ,) and a law written on our hearts (conscience.)
Nice try though.
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albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to Cullen Webb
So, you don't believe in pink unicorn because pink unicorn has not got a book about how you should behave. Does it not matter to you whether pink unicorn exists? Which is more important - just some books about how to behave or the whether pink unicorn exists?
If you question the pink unicorn's existence, how evidence do you need?
Some men in the desert, 2000+ years ago, wrote a few books with poor imagination, said that they were inspired by god. What evidence do you need in order to believe that these men were not lying? What evidence do you seek to show that the stories in these books were historically correct?
Abraham, hearing a voice in his head, attempted to kill his only son as a sacrifice to god would be considered ____________ ? To find the suitable word to fill in the blank, replace the name Abraham to anyone you do not know. Someone, hearing a voice in his head, attempted to kill his only son, what would that be?
Do you find such stories believable? Do you find such stories logical? Do you find such stories morally inspiring and worthy of imitation?
Com'on, we can do much better than trying to kill our offsprings in order to "please god".
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
I think an all powerful and righteous God who has been given reason to burn all of mankind in Hell but chose rather to save them at the cost of his own son is a little more important than a pink unicorn.
If you were to ask 10 random authors to write a book about a controversial subject what you would end up with is a mess. They wouldn't be able to finish it because their views and opinions would vary so greatly.
However Scripture was written by 40 authors over a span of thousands of years. they cover the most controversial subjects known to mankind and yet it is 100% fluid in its message. This book contains hundreds of confirmed scientific statements and proposals thousands of years before their time. I have composed a short list: http://www.nationpains.com/blog/?page_id=16
Also, you seam to think that humans wrote the Bible. Allow me to challenge that fact with another one of my posts: http://www.nationpains.com/blog/?p=275
You forget that God kept Abraham from killing his Son, because it was a test of his faith. It was a humble thing for Abraham to submit to such a thing when everything in him said it was wrong.
And for the record, I do find these stories to be inspiring and worthy of imitation. Unlike evolution which tells me I am an animal and there is nothing wrong with me killing people, because right and wrong don't exist.
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albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to Cullen Webb
I asked for a word to describe some one who attempted to kill his offspring in today's situation.
So you believe in this story:
You believe that your petty god, set the human up in the Eden garden with fruit in the middle of the garden. Being all knowing, your nasty god let a talking snake tempted Eve to eat the fruit and then blamed human for being disobedient while giving human free will. After he got the human out of the Eden garden, he continued to harass human. He is nosy on every tiny tiny bits of human thoughts. He could not just forgive the human's sin. He took all the trouble of sending himself, as his own son, born of a virgin to earth. Got himself tortured and died on a horrible torture instrument as a sacrifice for himself. This god/son/human then came back from death and raised to heaven, which was when bible was written above, but because we know now that earth is spherical, you believe into the outer space. Your nasty god also bully our fellow human to believing in him, else threaten to send us to an eternal fire.
Tell me how logical this christian story is. Tell me how morally inspiring this story is.
check this out for the history of bible http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible2.htm
So, when there is a dream or a voice in your head, will you be ready to kill your own child (if you have one) because god tells you to do so? If you were told to fly a plane into a building by god, will you do so? If on your night of wedding find that your wife is not a virgin, you are prepared to stone her to death. These are laws written in OT and Jesus explicit said that he does not come here to change them.
I hope you won't do those things in the last paragraph. I hope you have the common sense to find these suggestion repulsive. But these are teachings in your book. How do you reconcile them? What kind of mental juggernaut you need to do to give yourself an excuse not to stone someone who committed adultery? How do you find an excuse not to stone someone who work on the Sabbath day (remember, again OT insisted that you must rest on the seventh day)?
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
Let me ask you something. If you were married, could you force your wife to love you? Could you force her to be faithful to you? Keeping her locked up in your home never allowing any other man to even know of here existence? No. You would not. Because that is not love. because you love her you would allow her to leave your home and make friends with other men and woman, knowing the risk of adultery.
The same thing is true of God. We had an intimate relationship with him, Adam even walked with him and they spoke with each other as friends. God could have locked mankind up in the garden, never letting them encounter evil, never giving them the chance to sin. but instead God gave us a choice, like the wife should be given a choice. But we chose wrong.
More on freewill here: http://www.nationpains.com/blog/?p=374
God cannot forgive sin, this is true. But let me ask you something else. If you raped somebody, and stood before a good judge for your crime, what would he do? Could he forgive you simply because you asked forgiveness? Could he let you go because you "did good things" every other day of your life? No. If he were a good judge he would bring swift justice upon you.
God is the same way. He is a righteous judge. And when man stands before him, filthy with sin, he cannot forgive them simply because they are sorry, or because they do good works. Somebody needs to be punished.
That is why God allowed himself to become man in the form of Jesus Christ to take upon himself the sins of the world so that we may go free. Imagine a man stepping into the courtroom and accepting punishment or paying the fine that was meant for you.
I am sorry, but I cannot take that link seriously. You should notice how the source of the information is not mentioned.
If there were a voice in my head telling me to do something, I would do what scripture tells me to do: test it. Many people forget to do this, and we end up with 9/11's all over the place. but those acts of evil do not line up with Gods standards.
Those laws were up to the people to enforce, with the exception of the sabbath. if a man were married and he did not believe his wife as a virgin, would he truly turn on her? People weren't stupid back then albertip. They could love people as well. But the reason for the law was to establish the importance of honesty and purity within the marriage. If the woman is not a virgin, why would she claim to be otherwise if not for her own selfish reasons?
The sabbath is indeed a very important matter. I think that if God want's to set apart a day for himself he has the right to do so. And if his chosen people don't obey him, yet proclaim themselves a people of God, then they should be punished harshly for both disobedience and marring the name of God.
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Michael Wedding [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
"Nasty God"..."bully"..."nosy" clearly is what you believe about God. It makes me sad that you cannot see that God is a God of compassion, slow to anger, merciful, loving, kind, caring, forgiving, not wishing that any should perish (from his righteous judgement...for we are all sinners...and deserve nothing but His eternal punishment for our disobedience). He is the one who created us and gave us everything we have in this life...everything! Yes I believe in this "petty" God and am not ashamed to say so. It is amazing how patient our God has been in his judgement being that so many of his creation hate him so. I will be praying that you see the truth of who is really is before that time comes so we can both praise him in heaven for his mercy, grace and love for us.
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albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to Michael Wedding
Here is a list of adjectives and the verses corresponding to these adjectives. These adjectives describe your god - whether you like it not - and they are from the bible.
jealous and proud of it
How jealous and proud is he? Well, his name is Jealous. And he named himself!
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exodus 34:14
Here are some more verses where God brags about his jealousy.
I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Exodus 20:5
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. Deuteronomy 4:24
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Deuteronomy 5:9
(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 6:15
The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. Deuteronomy 29:20
They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. Deuteronomy 32:16
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Deuteronomy 32:21
He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19
And Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins. 1 Kings 14:22
And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. Ezekiel 8:3
Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry. Ezekiel 8:5
I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. Ezekiel 16:38
So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry. Ezekiel 16:42
And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire. Ezekiel 23:25
Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen. Ezekiel 36:5
For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel. Ezekiel 38:19
God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; Nahum 1:2
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. Zechariah 1:14
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. Zechariah 8:2
a petty,
A golden bell and a pomegranate ... shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not. Exodus 28:34-35
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. Leviticus 19:19
Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. Deuteronomy 17:1
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. Deuteronomy 22:11
Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself. Deuteronomy 22:12
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation. Deuteronomy 23:2
a petty,
A golden bell and a pomegranate ... shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not. Exodus 28:34-35
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. Leviticus 19:19
Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. Deuteronomy 17:1
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. Deuteronomy 22:11
Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself. Deuteronomy 22:12
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation. Deuteronomy 23:2
control-freak;
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: ... The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods (hemorrhoids), and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: ... Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: ... The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. ... And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters ... The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them. Deuteronomy 28:15-68
a vindictive,
I kill .. I wound ... I will render vengeance to mine enemies ... I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. Deuteronomy 32:39-42
He will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries. Deuteronomy 32:43
To me belongeth vengeance and recompence ... for the day of their calamity is at hand. Deuteronomy 32:35
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them. Nunbers 11:1
Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them: the young men shall die by the sword; their sons and their daughters shall die by famine: Jeremiah 11:22
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood. Jeremiah 46:10
And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. Micah 5:15
bloodthirsty
And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD. Leviticus 4:17
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29
I kill .. I wound ... I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. Deuteronomy 32:39-42
But God shall wound the head of his enemies ... That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:21-23
For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. Isaiah 34:2-3
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven. Isaiah 34:5
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, ... their land shall be soaked with blood, ... For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance. Isaiah 34:7-8
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine. Isaiah 49:26
I will ... trample them in my fury; and their blood ... will stain all my raiment. Isaiah 63:2-6
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. Jeremiah 19:9
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood. Jeremiah 46:10
Cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48:10
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ezekiel 39:17
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth. Ezekiel 39:18
And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Ezekiel 39:19
And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Zephaniah 1:17
ethnic cleanser;
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
a misogynistic,
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, an do ye to them as is good in your eyes. Genesis 19:8
Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. 1 Samuel 18:27
And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged. Leviticus 19:20
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Nunbers 31:15-19
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself. Deuteronomy 20:13-14
And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her. Deuteronomy 21:11-13
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated .... Deuteronomy 21:15
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... Deuteronomy 22:13
I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid. Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city. But if ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:14-21
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24
When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one ... putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30
Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. 1 Samuel 18:27
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 2 Samuel 12:11
And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD Ezekiel 26:6
homophobic,
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
racist,
One of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses ... And when Phinehas ... saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. Numbers 25:6-8
The LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever. Deuteronomy 23:3
infanticidal,
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon. Exodus 12:29
Ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. Leviticus 26:16
I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children. Leviticus 26:22
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. ... And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick... on the seventh day, that the child died. 2 Samuel 12:14-18
Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers. Ezekiel 5:10
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. Jeremiah 19:9
genocidal,
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:5
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17
So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
filicidal,
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering. Genesis 22:2
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death. Leviticus 20:9
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods ... hou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Psalm 137:9
pestilential,
And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague. Nunbers 11:33
And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Nunbers 21:6
The hand of the LORD was against the city ... and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 1 Samuel 5:9
So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? ... So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel ... and there died of the people ... seventy thousand men. 2 Samuel 24:13
So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it. Ezekiel 5:17
megalomaniacal,
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly. 2 Samuel 22:8-11
Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 38:23
sadomasochistic,
Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 23:34
capriciously malevolent
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark ... fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. Ezekiel 9:4-7
Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18
And the cities that are inhabited shall be laid waste, and the land shall be desolate; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 12:20
bully.
And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the LORD: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. Jeremiah 15:3
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 38:21-23
albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to Michael Wedding
The original source of these verses mapping to the adjectives is http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2008/12...
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
*sigh*
Okay, I will answer these one by one. But do be sure to mention it next time that you are simply copy and pasting. Kinda lacks dignity.
Jealous.
Why is it wrong to be jealous? He is not coveting what is not his, which is wrong, but rather he is as a husband who loves his wife too much to share.
Petty.
I'm sorry, but doesn't an all knowing God have the right to be right? He doesn't need to be open minded towards things he KNOWS are wrong.
Vindictive / Capriciously Malevolent.
Wrong choice of words. Our culture praises men like George Washington for his leadership as president and general. Yet he is responsible for the death of many. Why is God any different?
Misogynistic.
Would you be okay if I called you a feminist? I posted my thoughts about God and the place of woman here: http://www.nationpains.com/blog/?p=345
Homophobic.
Not true. Homophobic suggests a fear of homosexuality, when in reality God simply states that it is evil. Which it is: http://www.nationpains.com/blog/?p=44
Racist / Genocidal.
No. Jealous.
God did not wipe out other countries because of the color of their skin or any stupid thing like that. But because they lived in complete evil and ignorance of him. The sacrificed children, sold and raped woman, etc. etc. Rather than let them mingle with Israel and pollute them, he had them wiped out.
Infanticidal.
Children were considered the strength of a nation. So when God, after many many warnings decided it was time to punish harshly, the children were taken away.
Don't think that God woke up one day and said "I'm going to kill children." No, he gave them a lot of time, and he even told them he would if they didn't change.
The children were too young to be accountable, so Heaven was there destination.
Filicidal.
You fail to understand who God is, and what he is capable of.
Let's just assume that there was not a humanly "moral" reason for him to do any of that. Who are you to tell Him He's wrong?
But in the instance of Abraham, God did not let him go through with it. It was a test of his faith and devotion.
And in the instance of the punishment for children, you must realize that God has the right to say that. Rebellion is evil. No less.
Megalomaniac.
When Jesus was overtaken by a righteous anger, he turned tables and beat people.
When God, the very source of righteousness gets angry, nature itself gives way under him. Explain to my why this is wrong.
Sadomasochistic.
You would have to be very ignorant to accuse God of being sexually aroused by pain. I am appalled at your lack of understanding.
Bully.
Do you accuse your father of being bully, simply because he spanked you as a child? What a desperate attempt.
Let me warn you. If you continue to search out answers to irrelevant issues such as these, you will chase your own tail until you die. I have watched as people like you have fallen into an endless pit of doubt.
What bothers me most about scripture is not what I don't understand, but what I do. Gods right to judge us, our inability to be sinless, and our destination if we don't repent.
albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to Cullen Webb
Are these behaviour worthy of being a moral model?
>Why is it wrong to be jealous? He is not coveting what is not his, which is wrong, but rather he is as a husband who loves his wife too much to share.
So, you love your wife and her beauty. Therefore it is not too much for you to put her in black clothes top to heel. Will you be ready to kill if you wife talks to someone else?
>Children were considered the strength of a nation. So when God, after many many warnings decided it was time to punish harshly, the children were taken away.
So, in war, what you would suggest to do is to kill all the young men, babies first?
>feminist.
Except from verses in the bible, why you think the woman who gave birth to you is any less than her husband? What makes you think that half of the world's population is less than the other half?
>But in the instance of Abraham, God did not let him go through with it. It was a test of his faith and devotion.
Being all knowing, why is it necessary for god to test Abraham? Should it not that god would have known already? Have you consider the horror that was put onto Issac? Why Issac any less than a child of god than Abraham? Again, take this story into modern times, what would you do if someone proclaims that s/he heard a voice and was commanded to kill his/her child? Would you just stand by and wait to see if God will pull the child out in the last minute? Many wars have been started because someone heard the command of god and invade another countries. How do you know for sure that the voice was actually from god instead of hallucination? How do you know for sure that the voice was not actually made up?
What I have pointed out, by cutting and pasting, is the mixed bag of standards in the bible. You pick and choose. In such process, your *own* moral standards kick in. I hope you reject "honour killing". I hope you reject the notion of slavery. These were standards 2000+ years ago. Human has moved on. Modern society does not consider honour killing as moral anymore, nor is the practice of slavery.
Thank you for your concern of my sanity. I am doing fine. But I do have concern about yours. We base our action on evidence. We do not wake up doing things because we dream about these things at night. Good dreams, bad dreams are just dreams. We conduct our life via reason, logic and evidence. I hope you won't just pray when your children are sick - you have the sanity to send them to a doctor. Children had died because of parents believing in prayers instead of modern medicine. (example)
I don't need the delusion of god to be a good person. I know I enjoy company of friends. I know I am a social animal and human progress is dependent on the collective effort of every member of our species. I have compassion. I do not need a violent god, setting moral standards which do not improve with time. I believe in freedom for everyone. Every human is equal, irrespective of skin colour or gender.
Be it that I am just a random collection of proteins and be it that we share a common ancestor with chimps, I am the lucky one in the lottery of evolution. We are the lucky one in the evolution. We happen to be on the branch of the most *advanced* species.
"Do you realise how pathetic it would be for a creator to alter the working order of the universe in order to answer the prayer of 1 of the 6.75 billion human who is one of the 1.5 million species on Earth, which is one of the eight planets of the Solar System which is one of 200 billion stars making up the Milky Way which is one of the 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe [ignoring the possibility of multiple universes]? [numbers are estimates from sources linked]
It would be mad to say that this creator would be so obsessed by human recognition to the point that s/he created a hell to punish those who do not! " [source]
Cullen Webb [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
>So, you love your wife and her beauty. Therefore it is not too much for you to put her in black clothes top to heel. Will you be ready to kill if you wife talks to someone else?
Did I say that? No. Did I say anything like that? No.
But if your wife was committing adultery, would you be jealous? If you were a good husband you would be. Now, God has said that by breaking his law it's like we are being a prostitute, selling ourselves out to the world. So God is jealous.
>Feminist. Except from verses in the bible, why you think the woman who gave birth to you is any less than her husband? What makes you think that half of the world's population is less than the other half?
Mam and Woman are NOT equal, because equal implies SAME. Man and Woman ARE however, of equal VALUE.
I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth. Stop.
>Being all knowing, why is it necessary for god to test Abraham? Should it not that god would have known already? Have you consider the horror that was put onto Issac? Why Issac any less than a child of god than Abraham? Again, take this story into modern times, what would you do if someone proclaims that s/he heard a voice and was commanded to kill his/her child? Would you just stand by and wait to see if God will pull the child out in the last minute? Many wars have been started because someone heard the command of god and invade another countries. How do you know for sure that the voice was actually from god instead of hallucination? How do you know for sure that the voice was not actually made up?
Have you ever asked a question, knowing the answer?
Have you ever taken Joy seeing your children doing what you ask (if you are a parent?)
Have you ever considered the lesson Isaac learned?
If I heard about a man who killed his child as a sacrifice, it would be a no brainer that the "voice" he heard was either demonic or insanity.because Jesus Christ was the final sacrifice.
Again, God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice his child. This is the third time I have Reminded you.
Wars get started in the name of God wrongly, because people have presuppositions about God. All of those wars could have been avoided if they took the time to submit to the God revealed in scripture. The should TEST Gods voice, as we are commanded.
>Thank you for your concern of my sanity. I am doing fine. But I do have concern about yours. We base our action on evidence. We do not wake up doing things because we dream about these things at night. Good dreams, bad dreams are just dreams. We conduct our life via reason, logic and evidence. I hope you won't just pray when your children are sick - you have the sanity to send them to a doctor. Children had died because of parents believing in prayers instead of modern medicine.
Have I ever seen, heard, felt, or tasted your brain? Then how can I be sure it exists?
Have you ever seen the wind? No? How do you know it exists?
have you ever seen love? Have you ever seen anger? No you haven't. You have only seen the EFFECTS of these things. Your brain controlling your body, the wind moving trees, love bringing two together, and anger tearing them apart.
Yet we believe these things exist. Why not God?
If my child were sick, my prayer would be as follows:
"Dear God, please heal or provide healing for my child."
Lo and behold, there's a doctor in town.
>I don't need the delusion of god to be a good person. I know I enjoy company of friends. I know I am a social animal and human progress is dependent on the collective effort of every member of our species. I have compassion.
True. You can be a very good, and very successful man apart from God. At least according to mans standards.
have you ever wondered if you are good according to Gods standards? If not, this may be why you misunderstand his acts of judgment.
#1: Have you ever lied?
#2: Have you ever stolen anything, regardless of value?
#3: Have you ever lusted after a man/woman? Jesus said lust is adultery in you heart.
#4: Have you ever used Gods name in vain?
If you answered yes to those, then you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. And that's only 4 of the 10 commandments.
You would only have to break 1 to be in violation of Gods law.
>I do not need a violent god, setting moral standards which do not improve with time.
Is a judge violent when he sentences a repeat rapist and murderer to death? No? Then you are double minded.
Was lying wrong yesterday? A week ago? A year ago? A century ago?
What was wrong yesterday will always be wrong. Time does not forgive sin.
>I believe in freedom for everyone. Every human is equal, irrespective of skin colour or gender.
The only time God has EVER passed a judgment on somebody it's because of their SIN. not their color, race or gender. Believe it or not, Jesus may not have been white. There is a lot of speculation that he was darker.
>Be it that I am just a random collection of proteins and be it that we share a common ancestor with chimps, I am the lucky one in the lottery of evolution. We are the lucky one in the evolution. We happen to be on the branch of the most *advanced* species.
So in the name of cleaning up the gene pool, I could go over to your house and slaughter you?
You hypocrite. Who are you to tell God he is wrong, when you don't believe in right or wrong?
>"Do you realise how pathetic it would be for a creator to alter the working order of the universe in order to answer the prayer of 1 of the 6.75 billion human who is one of the 1.5 million species on Earth, which is one of the eight planets of the Solar System which is one of 200 billion stars making up the Milky Way which is one of the 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe [ignoring the possibility of multiple universes]? [numbers are estimates from sources linked]
That's like saying a Dad shouldn't alter the fridge because his child is hungry. How dumb.
And doesn't his answer to our prayers suggest that he loves us greatly?
>It would be mad to say that this creator would be so obsessed by human recognition to the point that s/he created a hell to punish those who do not!
Nay. God created Hell for Satan and demons. When we sin, we align ourselves with them and choose to share there fate. Hell was not originally meant for humans.
Oh, and don't you like attention from your children (assuming your a father?)
You will never find God, if you look for him with human tools.
albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to Cullen Webb
>I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth. Stop.
My apology.
>Abraham
Your god does have a peculiar sense of humour. Asking Abraham to sacrifice his son only as "Joy seeing your children doing what you ask".
What would be the difference between Abraham hearing the words of god to sacrifice his son and someone today hearing the voice commanding that someone to sacrifice a child? Muslims do not agree that Jesus was the last saviour. In fact, they treated Jesus as another prophet. What evidence do you have that Jesus was the final sacrifice? I know your answer may be that it is so said in the bible. Besides the bible, is there any evidence? You know I do not accept the bible as historical accurate and factual documents.
>Wars get started in the name of God wrongly, because people have presuppositions about God. All of those wars could have been avoided if they took the time to submit to the God revealed in scripture. The should TEST Gods voice, as we are commanded.
How do you know these people have not taken time to submit to god?
>The[y] should TEST Gods voice, as we are commanded.
How can anyone test gods' voice?
>Have I ever seen, heard, felt, or tasted your brain? Then how can I be sure it exists?
Have you ever seen the wind? No? How do you know it exists?
Good questions. Human has 5 senses. There are also other effects which we cannot sense, e.g. magnetic field. We build our understanding, initially based on these senses. Such an understanding is possible because the reality provided a consistent response. Our complex brain was able to make connections and eventually build our world view.
For those effects which are beyond our direct sense, we depend on observation. When the tree moves, we also "feel" a breeze. We give it a name. It is wind. Do we conclude the existence of wind from "sight"? Yes, in a way. We observed movements of tree branches and leaves and so on. We build a concept on observations. Science has extended our senses in different ways. Telescopes allow us to far distant objects. Microscope allow us to see small objects. How do we know the images thro' a telescope is in fact a distance object's image. Well, that depends on our understanding of how the telescope works, or we trust those making the telescope that what we see via the telescope is from distance object.
>If my child were sick, my prayer would be as follows:"Dear God, please heal or provide healing for my child." Lo and behold, there's a doctor in town.
If you were in outback Australia, lo and behold, there will be a doctor in town in a week.
If there were no doctor for the last 100 years, and lo and behold suddenly there is a doctor in town capable of dealing with the illness when you prayed, then it is a *miracle*. 2000 year ago. lo and behold, there is no doctor in town in the next 2000 years! How's that for prayer?
>you are good according to Gods standards
I am going to give a counter example here. The bible has accepted slavery. There are verses telling master how to treat slaves.
Do you still accept human slave?
What god's standards, huh? OUR standards have improved! If god's standards are to be permanent, should it be no slave from the onset? The moral standards at the time the bible was written accepted slavery. It was considered "advanced" by treating the slave humanely. In our current moral standard, owning slave is considered immoral, right?
Moral standards are not based on "god's standards". There is just no such thing as god and hence there is no god standards.
>Is a judge violent when he sentences a repeat rapist and murderer to death?
Personally, I object capital punishment. Life imprisonment may be more appropriate. Death has already occurred. Revenge is not the only solution. Taking a revenge view is a limited world view. Mandela was a great leader because he understood revenge is not a cure. He urged the South African to work together as a nation after the apartheid ended.
>So in the name of cleaning up the gene pool, I could go over to your house and slaughter you?
That's exactly the problem I have with people like you. You thought god was on your side. Same for those muslims who thought god was on their side. Before you come over and murder me, tell me how do you know your god is the true god. Although both your and muslim believe in the same Abrahamic god, there are lots of other gods people worshipped before, Appollo, Zeus, or the Fying Spaghetti Monster. How can you be sure you have worshipped the right one?
The issue of evil has been well documented as one of the greatest difficulty for god argument. I am not going to follow that path.
--
back to where I left off on observations...
Here is another interesting property about "trust". We have to trust many people around us in order to go by every day. We have to trust people who provided us with food that the food is really healthy for us. Of course, there are times the trust has been misplaced. Sometimes the people deliberately provide false information. Sometimes, it was just ignorance.
Of course, we cannot, and would not, test out every piece of information presented to us. However, there are times that we wish we have checked before taking action based on the information received. Sometimes, we wanted to check out the information, but it was beyond our own ability.
I would argue that the most important thing is the *theoretical* possibility of checking out the validity of a claim. If I make a claim of something, you have the theoretical possibility to check it out, you are in a much better position. Whether you take the action to check out the claim is another issue here.
In this discussion of religious belief, can I check and verify your central claim - that god exists? Ie, is there any evidence for me to believe that there is a god, of course besides the old books which you mistakenly thought was holy?
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
>Your god does have a peculiar sense of humour. Asking Abraham to sacrifice his son only as "Joy seeing your children doing what you ask".
No, that's not the only reason why. I have already explained why, and that was only one of them.
>How do you know these people have not taken time to submit to god?
I will know them by their fruits. If they are acting in Gods will, they will bear good fruit. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, and a few others I cannot remember at this moment.
>How can anyone test gods' voice?
Simply compare the "voice" asking you to do something with the fruits mentioned above. Then examine the God of the bible, the promises he made, and things he said he would never do again.
For example, if a voice came and told you to build an ark, it would obviously be false. Because God vowed to never destroy the whole Earth with a flood again.
>For those effects which are beyond our direct sense, we depend on observation. When the tree moves, we also "feel" a breeze. We give it a name. It is wind.
What a BEAUTIFUL way of putting things! I have to agree with you perfectly in what you just said, as it was the exact point I was trying to get across.
When mankind is witness to things supernatural, things beyond human capability and mother nature, we give it a name. God.
We can witness the hand of God in a perfect Bible, the change that takes place in a true convert, or many other ways. It can be divine intervention, or his subtle voice in our conscience.
>If you were in outback Australia, lo and behold, there will be a doctor in town in a week.
Way to bait and switch. You asked what I would do, not somebody in Africa.
That is an issue called "evil", and is a debate completely irrelevant to what we are discussing and the point you were trying to get across when you first asked that question.
>I am going to give a counter example here. The bible has accepted slavery. There are verses telling master how to treat slaves.
When people hear the word "slave" they immediately think of the African slaves that were captured and sold.
Slaves in scripture were men who owed a debt financially or morally to society. Kind of like community service.
These men were not allowed to be kept for a life time, or to be worked too hard. In fact: if you beat your slave, or mistreated him in any way, you would be forced to set him free.
Do NOT compare the African slave trade to the slavery described int he Bible.
>What god's standards, huh? OUR standards have improved!
How pompous. Do you realize that 100 years ago Sexually Transmitted Diseases were basically non-existent? Because we let go of the importance of marriage, our sexual health has gone *poof*.
100 years ago our divorce rate was 5%. Now it is 50%.
I could give you a lot more. But I think you get the point.
Don't you DARE say we have improved, when the exact opposite has happened.
>Personally, I object capital punishment. Life imprisonment may be more appropriate
There is currently 1.5 million people in prison. Many of them are repeat rapists, repeat murderers and the like. You and I both are paying for their dinner at this very moment.
>Death has already occurred.
This is pure idiocy. And fluff.
Death has not occurred, because a huge amount of the people who go to prison do the SAME THING when they get out! The don't stop stealing, cheating or killing!
>Revenge is not the only solution.
I agree.
An impartial judge cannot take revenge. He can only deal Justice. That is why our legal system is so great.
>That's exactly the problem I have with people like you. You thought god was on your side.
Wow. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with why I asked that.
My point was that if there is NO God, neither Allah or Jehovah, then there is also no reason I shouldn't kill somebody simply because I don't like them.
>The issue of evil has been well documented as one of the greatest difficulty for god argument. I am not going to follow that path.
I object. the issue of evil is a huge determent to Atheist. For evil CANNOT occur unless the VALUE of human life has been established in the first place.
For example: Murder.
Why would it be wrong if humans weren't worth anything? If we're just animals then my instinct is blameless.
Again, it has been a pleasure to cross swords with you. I pray the double edged sword of Christ will pierce your heart.
-Cullen Webb
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albertip [Moderator] 4 weeks ago in reply to Cullen Webb
>god's sense of humour
The bible itself does not explain why god needs to test Abraham's faith. People can explain as they like. The fact is it is a cruel act to Issac. If the same event were to happen in modern society, Abraham would have been put in a mental hospital at the least. That is NOT a model for any modern human as a moral act. This is ONLY one of the examples where the errant old books are faulty.
>Fruit as a test of god voice
This is really DANGEROUS. I heard a voice in my head asking me to fly a plane into a building. According to you, I need to do that, from the result of what I would have done and judge whether it would truly be god's voice.
It is a little comforting that after the big flood, god found that it was not good and it has decided not to do that again. This is a crime against humanity. This is genocide. This is indiscriminate killing. Modern man would have sentence this creature to multiple life-time imprisonment.
>When mankind is witness to things supernatural, things beyond human capability and mother nature, we give it a name. God.
Can you give me an example of things supernatural?
It is a far cry from connecting a god to christian god. What makes you think that the "supernatural thingy" if it exists is the christian god. Can it be Zeus or Appollo or any of the thousands of gods human has worshipped in the past and in present?
>We can witness the hand of God in a perfect Bible.
The bible is the farthest thing I know from being perfect. It is self-contradictory. Just chapter 1 and 2 of genesis give two different accounts of the creation of the universe. They cannot both be right. They are both wrong!
The bible as moral model is shocking cruel and inhumane. The "historical facts" are randomly correct and randomly wrong. Noah lived to 900 years - a joke or what? An ark, about 450 feet long and 50 feet wide with 3 deck is able to house 2 animals of every kind - size matter, and it is the wrong size! The logistic of collecting animals from Australia, eg, is just not possible 2000 years ago.
It will take a damaged brain to believe the bible is anything but perfect. Except that I cannot explain why people can believe in such odd and incoherent stories.
> If you were in outback Australia, lo and behold, there will be a doctor in town in a week.
I asked what you would do when you or your children is sick. Do you just pray? Your answer implied that praying would send a doctor in town. Remember?
In modern times, it is NOT a miracle to find a doctor in a reasonably sized town. This has nothing to do with praying. Whether one pray or not, the doctor is in town. Also, the training of the medical doctor is predicated on NOT believing in miracle and prayers. I would be very certain when my GP tell me to pray instead of giving me a prescription with his knowledge of modern medicine.
>Slave
Whatever the situation may be in the case of the slave in the old times, the instruction to the slave owner that as long as you don't beat the slave to death at the spot, not lost an eye or a tooth,, that would be OK. Would you agree that it barbaric model should be banned? Given it is in a book that people of lead to believe to be the true words of god, how can that be wrong and hence why it should be banned?
I am expecting huge mental juggernauts for you to be able to reconcile these points.
>Sexually transmitted Diseases
Yes, 100 years ago, such diseases were not recorded as sexually transmitted diseases because people did NOT know they were transmitted by sexual contacts. They existed, but they were just NOT classified under STD.
>Divorce rate
As female becomes more independent, the tolerant of arrogant and abusive behaviour to husband has declined - leading to more divorce. What do you expect? Take away the dignity of half of the population, lock them up. make sure that they do not have contact with outside world - the divorce rate can drop to 0.
>Don't you DARE say we have improved, when the exact opposite has happened.
The common people lived better than Kings and Queens in the old days. Did they have air conditioning? Could they travel in comfort over long distance in short time?
Some of the declining human conditions is due to the greed and lack of empathy and passion of some of riches people. No one can deny the current inequality. The huge number of people going to bed without any food for the whole day. Many died unnecessarily because of the lack of sanitation of drinking water.
Telling the people in African not to use condom is murdering thousands of Africans daily. Pope should be dragged into a court and trialled for crime against humanity too.
>capital punishment
History is full of wrongful conviction. And on humane ground, I object capital punishment. The price a society pays in keeping people separated from the society is a price we need to pay in order to avoid wrongful execution.
>My point was that if there is NO God, neither Allah or Jehovah, then there is also no reason I shouldn't kill somebody simply because I don't like them.
That is just wrong. Human are social animals and our evolution instinct is to co-operate. Killing each other is not a great way to co-operate. As in other social animals, some members may learn to cheat, that's where justice come in.
Human normally behave nicely to each other. That we only behave nicely to each is because we fear a god is insulting. We feel good when we are respected, when we help others and when are being praised. That is more sufficient to be good to other people. On top of that, we can feel other's pain, we can empathy and we have passion. We enjoy company with other fellow human. These are all no reason to be good. Let me just repeat. It is insulting to say we behave only because we fear god. That is absolutely false.
Just an example, China, until about 500 years when she closed the border and became isolated were the greatest civilisation in the world with over 5000 years of *written* history. At the moment, China represents about 1/4 of the world population. So this is a fairly significant example. Throughout chinese history, people worship their ancestor. The main moral is derived from Confucianism which does not include a god.
>OK, you want to deal with evil. Let do that.
Here is the trilemma:
1. if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2. if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 4 weeks ago in reply to albertip
I hope your arguments are more thought out in the future.
>The bible itself does not explain why god needs to test Abraham's faith. People can explain as they like.
Genesis 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
That is OBVIOUSLY a test of faith.
Yes, people can explain things out of context very well. You do a good job of it.
>This is really DANGEROUS.
You are a sick person. You think that Love, Joy, Peace, and Etc. are all dangerous? How dumb.
And for the record, flying a plain into a building would not have passed the test. Obviously.
Your arguments are becoming more and more irrelevant and desperate.
>This is genocide. This is indiscriminate killing
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. God gave EVERY SINGLE man and woman the choice of going on the ark, even the day before it happened. For 120 YEARS Noah worked on the ark, and every DAY he preached to the people who were there to mock him.
Those people chose to drown, and deserved it.
>Can you give me an example of things supernatural?
Um. How about an infinite and intricate universe?
But I guess that's debatable. So how about the conscience? Or love?
For a step further, how about the resurrection of Jesus Christ? There is more historical documents about that event than there is about Julius Caesar. Written by non-biased individuals and trusted historians.
>What makes you think that the "supernatural thingy" if it exists is the christian god.
Because I have examined ever common world religion for myself, and have found Jehovah to be the only God that does not revolve around what MAN wants. Among many other reasons of course.
>The bible is the farthest thing I know from being perfect. It is self-contradictory. Just chapter 1 and 2 of genesis give two different accounts of the creation of the universe.
Genesis 1 is written as an overview of the Creation, day-by-day. Genesis 2 is an account of event-by-event.
They were both written by the same man, do you think he would miss that if it WERE a mistake?
>Noah lived to 900 years - a joke or what?
It was immediately after the flood that God began to limit how long humans could live. It began slowly, and then progressed to a limit of about 120 years.
Scientists believe that before the flood there was an ice-canopy over the atmosphere. And when it rained, that was destroyed. The canopy was responsible for a very high purity in the Earths oxygen level, which resulted in long life.
The Genesis account tells us about this canopy.
>The logistic of collecting animals from Australia, eg, is just not possible 2000 years ago.
The ark did not need to carry every SPECIES, just every KIND.
For example: the Dog kind, Cat kind, Horse kind and Bird kind.
NOT: Wolf, Dalmatian, Labrador, and Collie.
If only the KINDS were taken aboard, there would have been plenty of room for both animals and supplies.
>I asked what you would do when you or your children is sick. Do you just pray? Your answer implied that praying would send a doctor in town. Remember?
False. I implied that God is capable both of divine healing, and sending a means to be healed. Whether he sends a doctor or whatever.
You mistook me again.
>Also, the training of the medical doctor is predicated on NOT believing in miracle and prayers.
This is false. Modern medicine has a lot to thank Christianity AND prayers for. Penicillin for example, was created by a Christian man who was inspired by God.
>I am expecting huge mental juggernauts for you to be able to reconcile these points.
Those points had nothing to do with what I said.
I said that slavery back then was like community service. Do you have something against community service? I should hope not.
>They existed, but they were just NOT classified under STD.
This is false. AIDs, for example, did not exist in any shape or form back then.
You must also consider that a married couple who never has sex out of marriage will NEVER obtain any disease from the marriage bed. But anyone else will be if they sleep around.
>As female becomes more independent, the tolerant of arrogant and abusive behaviour to husband has declined - leading to more divorce. What do you expect?
*Cough* Excuse me. I choked on that huge piece of personal and unsupportable opinion.
>The common people lived better than Kings and Queens in the old days. Did they have air conditioning? Could they travel in comfort over long distance in short time?
I wasn't talking about technology. I was talking about morality, which should have been clear as I had just gotten done speaking about statistics.
>History is full of wrongful conviction. And on humane ground, I object capital punishment.
Yes, this has happened. But only rarely. Would you stop disciplining your children entirely simply because they were innocent on one occasion?
>That is just wrong. Human are social animals and our evolution instinct is to co-operate.
I can't help but laugh at that. Have you ever watched chickens? They peck and kill the weakest one. I have watched this happen, and it cannot be stopped.
Violence can be witnessed across the entire animal spectrum. If fact, survival of the fittest is a huge and monumental piece to the evolutionary theory. you just proved yourself wrong.
>1. if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2. if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?
God created a perfect world without any evil what-so-ever. We created evil, and WE embrace it, and we deserve it.
If God took away all evil, it would be like a parent spoiling a child. Removing all consequences from their wrong actions.
You also failed to answer my question about evil. How convenient.
-Cullen Webb
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albertip [Moderator] 4 weeks ago in reply to Cullen Webb
>"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me."
That's the words of a psycho - after threatening the poor Issac with death! As I originally noted, it is an all-knowing psycho playing a disgusting game!
>DANGEROUS
If the christian is really for love, kindness and good, that is all right. Unfortunately, the christian god represents nothing but the worse human behavour can be. The list of verses for each of the bad adjectives I posted earlier is an evidence to that. For that, it is dangerous for anyone, who thinks s/he has a voice in his/her head and acts upon that voice. Those flying planes into building are those who heard a voice in their heads. BTW, although the christian god and the muslim god has different names, it is the same god.
flying planes into building would not pass the test? really? when they knew that it was the end of their lives, it was too late!
>the universe is NOT supernatural. The universe is the physical reality we lived in.
>conscience, love are all natural. I know and you know we are conscience. We can feel love. These are natural. Supernatural does not exist!
>Resurrection of Jesus. This is a myth. I like to see references to "historical documents" - not the bible because it is how the myth was started. Any?
>Genesis
When is Eve created? Check your bible and answer this question.
>Noah lived to 900 years. That is a big claim and hence needs significant evidence to support it. Any?
>Noah ark. Do you honestly believe that a 450 feet long, 50 feet wide, 3 deck wooden ark could house 2 of every kind of animals? Do you honestly believe that these men, 2000+ years old could have collected the Kangaroo and Koala from Australia to later return them there?
Here is my source of complains http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
>The discovery of penicillin is attributed to Scottish scientist and Nobel laureate Alexander Fleming in 1928.[12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin
Please don't claim the good things for christians and all the bad things for others.
The most important thing to look at is the contradictory approach to science and religion. Science is based on observation - not "inspiration by god". Without evidential support, any inspiration worths nothing in science. It is the "scientific methods" or religious Bullsh*t that moves the human understanding forward.
>God created a perfect world without any evil what-so-ever. We created evil, and WE embrace it, and we deserve it.
Well done! we have created something god cannot! How convenient!
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 3 weeks ago in reply to albertip
>That's the words of a psycho - after threatening the poor Issac with death!
No, that's the word of somebody whom you have proclaimed as psycho, without any evidence supporting said accusation. This would earn you a lawsuit in society today.
>Unfortunately, the christian god represents nothing but the worse human behavour can be.
Biased and uneducated opinion again.
God has taught that we should turn the other cheek, love our enemies, be faithful to our wives, and be a supportive father, among other things.
When you can explain to me why these things are the worse behaviors amidst humans, I will give you a +1 in my opinion book.
> The list of verses for each of the bad adjectives I posted earlier is an evidence to that.
The list's of arguments you PASTED earlier were refuted. When you lost that argument you lost the right to bring up those points again.
>although the christian god and the muslim god has different names, it is the same god.
Allah says that when a Woman is raped, it's her fault.
Jehovah says that the man who raped her should be put to death.
Allah says that if you kill, rape, steal and pillage in his name, it's okay no matter what.
Jehovah says he will judge the man who does these things in his name.
Allah says that a woman is worth the price of 2 dogs. A christian woman, 1 dog.
Jehovah teaches men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. I.E., lay down your life for them.
It is a foolish and ignorant thing to compare the two. You just proved how little you know of either belief.
>the universe is NOT supernatural.
I already said it was debatable.
>We can feel love. These are natural. Supernatural does not exist!
No, you feel the effects of love. Just as you feel the effects of the wind.
Besides, one could argue that you can feel God in the same way you feel love.
>Resurrection of Jesus.
My turn to paste. Here is a list of supporting evidence for the resurrection. the first few are from the Bible, which I know you won't like. But it goes on to other sources.
http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm
>When is Eve created? Check your bible and answer this question.
I already checked my Bible, and I already answered this question. I'll let you re-read what I wrote to figure it out on your own.
>Noah lived to 900 years. That is a big claim and hence needs significant evidence to support it. Any?
Evolution vs. Creation is a huge debate, already being carried out by organizations like Answers in Genesis.
I answered the question as I saw fit. And you are not challenging anything in particular about my answer, so I will assume you are simply unsatisfied.
>Noah ark. Do you honestly believe that a 450 feet long, 50 feet wide, 3 deck wooden ark could house 2 of every kind of animals?
Yes. AiG has already done the dimension and they are quite big enough. In fact, they constructed 1% of the ark at their museum and I had the pleasure of standing in it. It's big.
>The discovery of penicillin is attributed to Scottish scientist and Nobel laureate Alexander Fleming in 1928.[12]
A Christian man. You should read about the story behind it. Oh, and that was only an example.
>Please don't claim the good things for christians and all the bad things for others.
Did I claim all the bad for others? No.
>Science is based on observation - not "inspiration by god".
This brings us back to a previous argument.
I have never observed your brain. Neither have you.
I have never observed evolution. Neither have you.
If you say you can see the effects of your brain, then I will say that I can see the effects of God.
>Well done! we have created something god cannot! How convenient!
No. We DID something God cannot. People assume that just because he is all powerful, that he can do everything. When this is untrue.
God cannot sin anymore than he can make a square circle.
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albertip [Moderator] 3 weeks ago in reply to Cullen Webb
>That's the words of a psycho - after threatening the poor Issac with death!
Tell me how it is NOT the word of a psycho. Threatening the life of the son just for "fun"!
>the christian god represents nothing but the worse human behavour can be.
Do I have to repeat the cut-and-paste I did earlier, verses which show how the christian god behaves against a list of bad adjectives? The way the christian god behave as demonstrated in those verse is sufficient to conclude that this god would be the worst model for human behaviour. This god should be prosecuted against humanity.
>It is a foolish and ignorant thing to compare the two.
So, Allah and Jehovah are two different gods. Whose version is the true god? What is the evidence that one of them is the true god? They cannot be both true god, but they both can be false.
>That the universe is supernatural is debatable?
So according to you, the universe is supernatural. First what is your definition of supernatural - so that we are sure we are talking about the same thing. I will respond after we have clarified the definitions first.
>Resurrection of Christ
From the paper you referred to, it says there is historical evidence of Jesus. However, the secontion "Historical Evidence outside of the bible", the historical record only show the prosecution of a group called christians. It does not provide any evidence of existence of of Jesus.
The rapid growth of a movement does not imply the existence of Jesus. John the Baptist may exist, but again this is NOT a proof of Jesus.
>Eve
is Eve created at the same time as Adam (as in Chapter 1:27) or afterwards (as in Chapter 2:22)?
>Creation and Intelligent Design
The debate between Intelligent Design and Evolution should not have happened. Intelligent Design, as ruled in USA courts is religious and NOT allowed to be taught in Science classes in schools. Evolution is evidence based science.
>Noah Ark
We just have to agree to disagree. I cannot understand how one can assume a total of 67,500 sq feet of space would be able to house 2 of *all* kinds of animals and the food and water needed for 6 months.
>A Christian man.
so what? The discovery of any science is based on evidence. The religion of the scientist does not imply the discovery is inspired by god. My reading of the study is that it is an accidental discovery. How's that become an inspiration from god?
>Please don't claim the good things for christians and all the bad things for others.
Can you name one good and moral thing which can only be done by a christian and cannot be done an atheist?
The converse is too easy. Name one thing that can only be done by christian and cannot be done by atheists - the crusade just a qucik example!
>Science is based on observation
You obviously is not knowledgeable about how science works. Science starts with observable data. The observation must be repeatable by anyone anywhere given the same circumstance. Is it not evidence-based?
>We DID something God cannot.
Well done, we are more capable than god!
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michaelwedding [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to albertip
It is easy to pick and choose verses from the bible to make it what you want it to be...that's a form of what is called moral relativism. Many "christians" have fallen into this to justify their sinful actions instead of simply obeying what God has asked us to do...that is why the church is falling, just as the nation of Israel (God's chosen people) fell. But there will always be a remnant of true believers who uphold the faith. You have listed a lot of verses...I hope you read them and not just cut and pasted them, but moreso I hope you have read the whole Bible to see the "big" picture of our Great Creator and God who has given us His Story in history from the beginning to eternity. Since Cullen responded to your "adjectives" describing what only you can apparently see about God, I won't....I don't desire to get into a great debate over these things but would simply rather hope that you "know" who God really is. I don't know why it is you have your view of God this way but you certainly aren't seeing the whole picture. Granted, there are some things that are hard to understand, but what we ourselves understand or not doesn't really matter. What matters is who we know...that is, the one true God. I am curious...why do you hate God so much? Remember also, that much of what is recorded in Scripture is an honest history of what sinful man has done and God's dealing with us. To me, it is amazing how patient he has been being that his own creation even crucified his own son and continues to reject his love offering. But we know that he is patient because he does not wish that any should perish and is calling all people to repent and turn from their wicked ways and embrace his love. He wants to bless us not only for eternity but in this life on earth.
Mike Wedding
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albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to michaelwedding
Yes, what I did was a cut and paste. But some time in the past, I have read the bible cover to cover. That feeling is not good and hence I am still a firm atheist. I really echo with Richard Dawkins (I did not hear that Dawkins' quote at the time I read the bible) how nasty the christian god is.
The point about moral to be based on the scripture has been completely reputed. I cannot remember the source off the top my head. The basic argument is that there are things to pick and choose. The act of picking and choose indicates that there is a moral working. One does not pick a verse because (not that it is not in the bible) one morally cannot support the act suggested by the verse. Stoning infidels or adulter are examples. In civilised society, we longer support stoning woman who was found not a virgin at the night of marriage. Not only that the bible does not provide a moral, what is IN the bible is out-dated. For example, no where in both NT and OT is slavery condemned. Today, slavery is generally considered as immoral. Our moral values have advanced.
On the other hand, the bible provides the fundies excuses for doing harm. The bible is the best tool to oppress half of the world's population. The following is another cut and paste job demonstrating how women were oppress in the bible.
To be cont'd after the cut and paste
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Genesis 1:27 to 3:24:
* In the first creation story (Genesis 1:27) God is described as creating man, both male and female at the same time: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." 2 This might be interpreted as implying equality between the two genders.
* But in the second creation story, (Genesis 2:7) God formed only a man: "...the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Realizing that he needed a helper (Genesis 2:18), God marched all of the animals past Adam (Genesis 2:19-20) looking for a suitable animal. Finding none suitable, God created Eve out of one of Adam's ribs. The term "helper" has historically been interpreted as implying an inferior role for Eve, although some modern interpreters believe that the word can mean a companion of equal status. "...the Hebrew word translated "helper" is used twenty-one times in the Old Testament: twenty of these cases refer to help from a superior." (3) In Genesis 2:27, Adam later asserts his authority over Eve by naming her: "...she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." In ancient times, one was believed to have authority over a person or thing by naming it.
* Genesis 3:16: Adam's role is to be Eve's master. The King James Version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), and Revised Standard Version (RSV) use the term "rule" to describe Adam's role over Eve: "...thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." The Living Bible uses the term "master". The Modern Language Bible uses "dominate". By implication, all of their descendents are would have the same power imbalance between spouses.
* A man could marry (literally "become the master of the woman") as often as he desired. In Genesis 4:19, Lamech became the first known polygamist when he took two wives. Subsequent men who took multiple wives included: Esau with 3 wives; Jacob: 2; Ashur: 2; Gideon: many; Elkanah: 2; David: many; Solomon: 700 wives of royal birth; Rehaboam: 3; Abijah: 14. Jehoram, Joash, Ahab, Jeholachin and Belshazzar also had multiple wives.
* Genesis 16:2 : Sarah gave permission to her husband Abraham to engage in sexual intercourse with her maid, Hagar: "Sarai said unto Abram...I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her." Presumably this was done without the consent of Hagar, who had such a low status in the society of the day that she was required to submit to multiple rapes at her owner's command.
* Genesis 19:8: The men of Sodom gathered around Lot's house, and asked that he bring his two guests out so that the men can "know" them. This is frequently interpreted as a desire to gang rape the visitors, although other interpretations are possible. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to be raped instead: He is recorded as saying: "I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes." Yet, even after this despicable act, Lot is still regarded as an honorable man, worth saving from the destruction of the city. Allowing one's daughters to be sexually assaulted by multiple rapists appears to be treated as a minor transgression, because of the low status of the young women. More details on Genesis 19.
* Genesis 21:10: A man could simultaneously keep numerous concubines. These were sexual partners of an even lower status than a wife was. As implied in this verse she could be dismissed when no longer needed: Sarah is recorded as saying: "...Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac." Abraham had two concubines; Gideon: at least 1; David: many; Nahor: 1; Jacob: 1; Eliphaz: 1; Gideon: 1; Caleb: 2; Manassah: 1; Saul: 1; David: at least 10; Rehoboam: 60; Solomon: 300; an unidentified Levite: 1; Belshazzar: more than 1.
* In Exodus 1:15-16, the Pharaoh ordered the midwives to kill all Jewish boys at birth, because of the threat that they might pose to the kingdom. "And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live." The girls, being considered less important, were not seen as a threat; they were allowed to live.
* Exodus 20 & 21: This is perhaps the most misogynistic pair of chapters in the Bible. A number of verses describe a woman as the property of her father. At marriage, her ownership was transferred to her new husband:
* Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." It is important to realize that a manservent and a maidservant were male and female slaves. They were not a hired butler and maid. The tenth commandment forbids coveting your neighbor's house, wife, male slave female slave, animals or anything else that the neighbor owns. The wife is clearly regarded as equivalent to a piece of property.
* Exodus 21:2-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing....If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself." A slaveowner was permitted to give a woman to his male slave as a wife. There is no indication that women were consulted during this type of transaction. After serving six years, he would leave, but his wife and children would remain slaves of the slaveowner. Again, there is no indication that the woman was consulted on this arrangement,
* Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." A father could sell his daughter as a slave. Even though a male slave is automatically given his freedom after 6 years, a female slave remained a slave forever.
* Exodus 22:16-17: The first seventeen verses of Exodus 22 deal with restitution in case of stealing, or damage to, a person's property. Verses 16 and 17 deal with the case of a man who seduces a virgin. This was viewed as a property offense against the woman's father. The woman was expected to marry the seducer. If her father refused to transfer ownership of his daughter to the seducer, the latter was required to required to pay money to her father. The money would be in compensation for the damage to the father's property - his daughter. It would be difficult for a non-virgin to marry.
* Exodus 21:22-25 describes a situation in which two men are fighting and one hits a pregnant woman. If the woman has a miscarriage because of the blow, the man is punished as the husband decides and must pay a fine for their act - not to the woman, but to her husband, presumably because he has been deprived of a child. The woman had no involvement. Exodus 21:22: "...he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."
* Exodus 23:17 states that only men are required to take part in the feasts of unleavened bread, of harvest and of ingathering: "Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD." [source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm]
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albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to michaelwedding
>Scripture is an honest history of what sinful man has done and God's dealing with us.
Let me rephrase, in my own words the christian story. [http://atheistbibleforum.blogspot.com/2010/03/christian-story-in-paragraph.html]
Christian believe that their god, set the human up in the Eden garden with fruit in the middle of the garden. Being all knowing, this god let a talking snake tempted Eve to eat the fruit and then blamed human for being disobedient while giving human free will. After he got the human out of the Eden garden, he continued to harass human. He is nosy on every tiny tiny bits of human thoughts, especially what two adults do in bed. He could not just forgive the human's sin. He took all the trouble of sending himself, as his own son, born of a virgin to earth. Got himself tortured and died on a horrible torture instrument as a sacrifice for himself. This god/son/human then came back from death and raised to heaven, which was when bible was written above, but because we know now that earth is spherical, some believe into the outer space. This god also bully our fellow human to believing in him, else threaten to send us to an eternal fire.
Tell me, honestly, why this is a god worth worshipping.
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michaelwedding [Moderator] 13 hours ago in reply to albertip
I find it interesting that though you don't believe the bible is factual, much of your belief about who God is seems based on what is recorded in the Old Testament....at least you use all those Old Testament verses for the sake of your argument. I submit to you however who God is in HIS NAME....Elohim (God), Jehovah/Yahweh (the self existent one: I AM), Jehovah-jireh (The Lord will Provide), Jehovah-Rapha (the Lord who heals), Jehovah-Nissa (the Lord our banner), Jehovah-Shalom (the Lord our peace), Jehovah-ra-ah (The Lord My Sheperd), Jehovah-tsidkenu (The Lord our Righteousness), Jehovah-shammad (The Lord is present), Jehovah-Elohim (The Lord God), Jehovah-Sabaoth (the Lord of hosts), El Elyon (the most high God), Adonai (our Master), El Shaddai (Almighty God, the strength giver), El Olam (Everlasting God). What a great and wonderful God we have.
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albertip [Moderator] 10 hours ago in reply to michaelwedding
Hi Michael,
first, I do not believe in a god - so "much of your belief about who God is seems based on what is recorded in the Old Testament." is wrong. I quote OT because I am familiar with the bible - the bible is fiction, period. This is a christian site, it is more appropriate to use material that both you and I are familiar.
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albertip [Moderator] 1 month ago in reply to michaelwedding
Finally, he stories in the bibles are far from factual. Jesus of Nazareth? At the time of birth of Jesus, assuming Jesus existed, Nazareth was not even a town! see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzQC1zKesU&feat...
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Cullen Webb [Moderator] 8 hours ago in reply to albertip
Although you started out with valid arguments, and have since then endured the debate even though you are out numbered, I no longer wish to discuss these things with you.
Not because I don't have faith in my argument, but because my argument is being wasted on you. I have tried to reason with you but it feels as though I am describing color to a blind man. You refuse to let go of irrelevant arguments even though we have addressed them accurately.
You don't want God, that much is clear. And if it makes you feel any better, I don't think you'll ever find him. Not if you remain in the mind-set you are now.
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